Module Whirlpool vriezer vastgelopen?

Op donderdag 20 februari 2025 22:27:10 schreef smd:
Another thing, monitor the 3,3 VDC, I have it seen that the 3,3 V went down to 2,9 VDC and then the problems occured. The best is to install an proper regulator in front of the processor..

Thanks for the info! That's exactly what I expected - and probably when monitored with a scope, it will dip below the µC minimum voltage rating.
Unfortunately, it's not easy to exchange the entire switch mode supply (and safety needs to be considered). So I'd prefer to find the assumed error. In any case, it seems like a non-traditional design. Typically, there would be an optocoupler providing feedback from the secondary side to the switcher circuit. But I see no parts (beside the IC) with more than 3 pins mounted... It might be implemented with an extra transformer winding - but in any case, your findings indicate it's not properly designed! :-O

Op woensdag 19 februari 2025 21:53:05 schreef EricN:
There is a SM and a schematic of the electric but not of the PCB.

Eric, could you post or link to the SM and electrical diagram?
Before measuring, I'm still puzzled about the driver/power for the LED lighting and the "missing" electrolytic cap for a 12V supply driving the relay for the compressor...

Op donderdag 20 februari 2025 22:50:39 schreef Gnyff:
[...] it's not properly designed! :-O

Darn, I'd love to see both the schematics and the safety approval!
The PCB design engineer has put in a proper effort to keep the isolation distance between the mains and the low voltage circuitry. But the electronics designer (right now, I doubt it's actually an engineer!) has in a stroke of either divine ingenuity or evil stupidity seemingly decided to connect the mains live wire directly (via L103) to the electronics GND!!! 8)7
Right now I'm simply baffled! Guess this requires a revisit... :?

That's whirlpool design these days. Wait till you find out about the mechanical (build up) mishaps. Looooong list. So i stopt rescuing these blunders.

For files i need a mail adres. If you don't want to publicly show you email (or hidden in credentials here) like i do, make a temporary one in example gmail (takes 2 minutes). Currently under Indeshit platform so don't expect to much.

Op woensdag 19 februari 2025 21:02:09 schreef Gnyff:
Sorry for writing in English - and I know this is an old thread...

Did anyone manage to find a schematics for the circuit?
Our freezer turned unstable after just over 2 years. The generic technician dismissed it as a generally crappy freezer (I tend to agree!) but thought it was missing coolant.
However, after looking at the errors, it seemed like an electronics problem - and we got the circuit board changed by Whirlpool. But this only lasted ~3/4 year before the instability was back. I seriously suspect it to be a supply problem. The mishaps (freezer either just stopping or ending up in alarm mode) seems to be more often shortly after the door has been opened. I'm thinking turning on all the LEDs in the display might trigger either a bad switcher or bad decoupling (it's a 2-layer PCB with no fills) and insufficient brown-out protection/reset circuitry in the STM micro-controller.
When it fails, the only way we've found to get it running again is to disconnect mains for >30min. Made no sense to me initially, but it seems there's >2000µF capacitance on the supply (3.3V?). So this probably needs to drain before the micro-controller properly resets.

In any case, I'd say it's a design error. Does not seem like planned planned obsolescence - but I might be wrong. In any case, it's hard to be impressed by Whirlpool!

I'd love to see the schematics...
It puzzles me where they get the voltage to drive the relay (marked 12V) for the compressor. The electrolytic caps on the secondary side is only 6.3V and 10V ratings! :-O
But I guess the first step without it is to try measuring noise on the main supply (3.3V) in the "door open" transition. (The door seems to be detected through a Hall sensor (MAG701) directly under the "-" sign in the display (interacting with two magnets in the door).

Good morning all, since I suspected the power supply I changed 6 capacitors and mounted the PCB back in the fridge. I thought I solved the problem, but a few weeks ago the same problem occured again. I now temporarily bought another freezer but I still hope we can find the problem... When somebody has service information about this unit, I would also be happy to receive it to further investigate!

I also measured the voltage which should be around 12V for driving the relays. In my situation it only gives 8,4 volt, which is also curious. When the freezer starts having the problem (it keeps resetting every 5 seconds), in my situation it takes about 30 hrs with mains unconnected before the freezer can startup again...
Best regards Hendrik.

Hi All!
Just now, I've written to Whirlpool in Denmark. I simply can't see how they - with the wiring I see (especially CN7) - would be able to get a proper safety approval with mains directly on the micro controller etc...
So I expect, they will (at least legally) have to recall ALL the W104011686 rev.A R2412 circuit boards. Whether they find this to be overly expensive and dare to omit to "take proper action" is another question.
But for now, I'll wait for their answer and expect to get a free, updated and safe (!) replacement board as soon as they have it (judging from this thread alone, they should have made it already).

I/we might proceed and find the error in the supply design (I personally suspect, some non-engineer have made a version without the CN6 output and forgotten that the switcher feedback was dependent on this (presumed optocoupler footprints U601/602.))
But I have a bad feeling making the design "safe" won't be as easy as removing L103 (creepage distances will still be insufficient - but I worry more about stability). So initially, I'll try to force a recall. I'll let you know about how it goes - if I succeed, you should be able to do the same in Holland or where ever you are! :-)

Best of luck to us all - hopefully Whirlpool will voluntarily "do the right thing"! Otherwise we'll take it from there (a bit more aggressive)... ;)

If Whirlpool doesn't come with solution, then it is also an idea to built in a proper AC to DC power supply. These are quite tiny now or days and then problem is solved too.

Double post...

[Bericht gewijzigd door smd op (89%)]

I'm certainly not convinced there's a safety issue if the low voltage circuit is doubly insulated (5kV) from anything you can touch. Maybe they have made a design mistake causing a durability issue but good luck getting a recall for that....

Op zaterdag 22 februari 2025 23:03:16 schreef maartenbakker:
I'm certainly not convinced there's a safety issue if the low voltage circuit is doubly insulated (5kV) from anything you can touch. Maybe they have made a design mistake causing a durability issue but good luck getting a recall for that....

Agreed: They might be lucky that the non-400V rated wires are isolated from the users by dumb luck! Likewise for the NTCs and internal LED lights... ;-)

Op zaterdag 22 februari 2025 18:53:53 schreef smd:
If Whirlpool doesn't come with solution, then it is also an idea to built in a proper AC to DC power supply. These are quite tiny now or days and then problem is solved too.

It's a bit of guesswork to find without proper (power) specs, though?! And in any case (at least) two voltages are needed.
The good thing is that isolation could be "restored" with a new supply design. I'm still a bit nervous that the breach of isolation was done to remedy yet another design flaw?! It simply seems so irrational to do otherwise! :-O

My best bet would currently be to mount the missing circuitry around the unused CN6 output (as I'm guessing, the instability problems are caused by missing feedback. Which in a normal, isolated design would be achieved with an optocoupler). But of course that involves the work of drawing up a schematics of the current design...

Op vrijdag 21 februari 2025 06:33:40 schreef EricN:
That's whirlpool design these days. Wait till you find out about the mechanical (build up) mishaps. Looooong list. So i stopt rescuing these blunders.

For files i need a mail adres. If you don't want to publicly show you email (or hidden in credentials here) like i do, make a temporary one in example gmail (takes 2 minutes). Currently under Indeshit platform so don't expect to much.

EricN, can you please send me this information regarding this freezer? I'm building another controller in the freezer, but I'm looking for more information regarding the wiring.

Thanks, best regards Hendrik.

Wat het schema betreft best een zakdoek bij de hand nemen om de tranen te absorberen. Iemand heeft de pixels op mincraft niveau gezet. Info onderweg

Mss heb ik ergens in de archieven nog de oude SCC file voor de "schoonmaak" operatie.

[Bericht gewijzigd door EricN op (23%)]

I got an "answer" from Whirlpool (translated): "Our head office has investigated the matter and has made a decision that no further action will be taken on your claim.". 8)7

I intend to investigate the safety issues a bit further and report the product to the safety authorities in Denmark. I seriously doubt they've gotten it properly CE approved as it is! :o
I'm of course still interested in fixing both the supply (as mentioned I think it's currently missing feedback because of unmounted parts - and this is why it's unstable) and safety issues.
Has anyone started drawing even parts of the schematics? I think it's necessary to gain a bit of an overview to have a chance of fixing it...

Cheers,
Anders

Whirlpool no longer exists i think. First it got taken over by indesit, wich we call indeshit for obvious reasons. An even larger group with even more problems than this fridge. Now it's taken over by Beko. They're gonna pull out the "it was not us" card. But don't let it discouraged you. I'm curious on your further endeavor.

Op maandag 24 februari 2025 23:44:16 schreef Gnyff:
[...]

Agreed: They might be lucky that the non-400V rated wires are isolated from the users by dumb luck! Likewise for the NTCs and internal LED lights... ;-)

Why dumb luck? If they're isolated from the user, they confirm to the rules. I wrote 5kV but the appliance is earthed so 2,5kV to earthed or consumer touchable surfaces is sufficient. That's all. I don't know why you think the low voltage circuit may not be mains coupled as long as there's isolation to the outside. The same circuit used to have 230V on it outright in simpeler mechanically controlled and light bulb lit models, so no practical difference. I'm sure such a design from a few years ago would also still be considered perfectly safe according to regulations.

Of course they might have made a mistake in the isolation, but you yourself wrote that there's nothing wrong with the isolation, if I understand correctly. You seem to consider it coincidence while the manufacturer considers it design, but the outcome is the same: it's mains-isolated.

You might be better of concentrating on the durability issues instead of chasing a problem without toroughly verifying whether it even exists. From what you wrote, I don't think there's a safety problem at all.

Op maandag 19 mei 2025 11:42:23 schreef maartenbakker:
[...]
Why dumb luck? [...]
Of course they might have made a mistake in the isolation, but you yourself wrote that there's nothing wrong with the isolation [...]

I use the phrase "dumb luck" because it seems unintelligent to spend engineering resources and making the PCB more expensive with air gaps to keep creepage distances and THEN short circuit the mains live to the low voltage ground! (Note1)
And I worry the brilliant engineer that made the short forgot to tell the rest. At least it's not common to use low voltage cable like the ones for CN5 and CN7 for something directly connected to mains... But of course they might have spend ressources making sure that "something else" provides sufficient isolation. But that would definitely be very nontraditional as wires are not that expensive and by default difficult/expensive to manage (ie keeping them away from the cabinet walls)! So if there should be no isolation issues with the low voltage rated cables and what they connect to, I presume it's rather luck than engineering. And that would in any case be dumb not to spend engineering resources on safety. |:(

I must admit that the resulting unstable freezer (a result that everyone in this thread can confirm) does not make me feeling any safer.
Looking at the physical PCB, I would expect an optocoupler for feedback to the controller. That would typically be something like U601 or U602 that are unfortunately both not mounted. My current theory is that when I open the freezer door, current consumption on the low voltage rails rise - and because of missing feedback the supply goes out of regulation and mess up the microcontroller! (And I'm guessing, the feedback is still there in applications where CN6 is used... And that those applications are working - but not necessarily safe! ;o) But of course there are cheaper ways of feedback when isolation between primary and secondary is dropped anyways... But the fact remains: The freezers are NOT stable! :-(

Cheers,
Anders

(Note1) You might measure between CN1-3 "L" terminal and C207 next to the µC. The short is the L103 ferrite between the C120 and C114 electrolytic caps. Note how the trace between CN1 and L103 have routing added to provide sufficient creepage distances to the "low voltage" area. At least the PCB designer was not on the same page as the schematics guy (I struggle to call the latter engineer ;-))

Or the air gaps weren't for mains insulation but just to create sufficient space between traces that have a significant voltage difference.

I don't exclude the reasoning that they're there because of bad engineering (is it actually bad to make something unneccessarily better than it need to be?) but before using it as an argument you'd better make sure there's no easy explanation.

[Bericht gewijzigd door maartenbakker op (47%)]

Op woensdag 21 mei 2025 14:29:11 schreef maartenbakker:
Or the air gaps weren't for mains insulation but just to create sufficient space between traces that have a significant voltage difference.

Yeah, the trace it isolates is shorted to the entire low voltage area on the other side...

I like your theory as it would indicate Whirlpool actually has done some proper engineering. Unfortunately I'm still not quite convinced! :o

As I've promised Whirlpool support, I've filed an official "safety concern application" for our specific model! Unfortunately, I won't get any feedback - but it will of course be announced publicly if they investigate and deem it unsafe...

In my opinion still, fit an improved Power supply. This model is not a great succesor of Whirlpool.. I slowly remove all Whirlpool Equipment from Philips time era due high age. Later Whirlpool equipment (Indesjit) never had in my home. Now it is Beko, that quality is (little) better...

You'll never get any answer from Whirlpoop !! Only when multiple fridges catch fire or something..

[Bericht gewijzigd door smd op (15%)]

Op woensdag 21 mei 2025 22:54:53 schreef smd:
In my opinion still, fit an improved Power supply. This model is not a great succesor of Whirlpool.. I slowly remove all Whirlpool Equipment from Philips time era due high age. Later Whirlpool equipment (Indesjit) never had in my home. Now it is Beko, that quality is (little) better...

You'll never get any answer from Whirlpoop !! Only when multiple fridges catch fire or something..

I think will be hard to restore isolation between the low-voltage and mains. I'm guessing they need them shorted for the non-relay output(s) on CN4.
But a stable supply would be great! I was leaning towards trying to fix the existing one as I don't know the specs for the rails. But without a schematics it's a bit hard to find the errors. So guessing the specs and using a few modules might be a plausible path forward...

I agree on the "Whirlpoop" and your assessment of their behavior - however, IF the safety authorities take their job seriously, Whirlpool will be forced to do something. And if I'm right also do a recall...

Hey guys,
I know the thread is quite old, but I have a solution for that Problem.
A russian guy founded two impotant things out and discribed it in this post:
click here

  1. The MCU on that board is a STM8S207CB and ist is open and can be read and written. See the picture below to see the pinout for connecting with SWIM interface, e.g. ST-LINK.
  2. All you have to do is to erase the "data memory". I didn't want to believe it before, but it is really that simple. Just erase all the data in the data memory and the freezer will work fine.

Wow. Great. I'm looking for this for years. Thanks a lot.

Hi,
I'm still fairly certain the problem originates in an unstable power supply for the microcontroller. Clearing the data memory might solve problems "at the moment" (and in lack of proper hardware design and programming, Beko really should have implemented a watchdog or the like that could automatically clean up the mess. Including the data memory). But in the long run, I think new code needs to be written - or (preferably: and) the hardware problems should be solved. At least for my part, I can't live with a freezer that stops at random points in time and needs its data memory cleared... ;-)
When my ongoing case against Beko/Whirlpool in "The Danish Consumer Complaints Board" is concluded reputedly end of 2026 (loong process!), I'll look into a solution for the power supply (provided they do not replace the freezer and take the old one away)...

Op vrijdag 11 september 2026 08:17:11 schreef element74:
Hey guys,
I know the thread is quite old, but I have a solution for that Problem.
A russian guy founded two impotant things out [...]
All you have to do is to erase the "data memory". I didn't want to believe it before, but it is really that simple. Just erase all the data in the data memory and the freezer will work fine.
[/list]

IF this the solution of erasing memory, than it is planned obsolence!!